The Art of Rinse & Repeat with Natalie Masson
It's LAUNCH season, a time to share your audience-building event, course promotion, or master class to help fill a program.
Now, if during your promotional events you've ever experienced feeling...
- A sense of "getting lost" in the online pitch-fest
- A desire to do things differently, because our audiences are more savvy & you want to change things up...
You're gonna want to listen to my conversation with a favorite online colleague of mine, Dr. Natalie Masson.
Natalie's began with an online business to help women deal with the stress of coping with fertility struggles
She built an online challenge model to build her audience so she can help more women...
Over the many many mannnnnyyyyyy times she's run her challenges, she's tweaked her approach.
And you're gonna learn from her today!
Her methods to create content for your own challenge events will help you
- avoid that "I'm constantly pitching" feeling during YOUR promotional events
- challenge traditional approaches with her game-changing strategy of "permission giving."
- learn how to attract & sell to your audience authentically without exhausting yourself.
You'll also learn how even introverted entrepreneurs can shine in this rinse-and-repeat challenges workshop format!
Take away some key strategies that Natalie uses to achieve high participant engagement and retention in her challenges...
While providing incredible transformation for them in a short time.
BONUS - Natalie talks about how she effectively utilizes audience comments and social proof to promote her programs!
If you're looking for a refreshingly authentic approach to build a genuine connection with your audience...
without constant pitching during promotional events...
or having a huge team to help you...
Then listen to Episode 218 with Dr. Natalie Masson, who's a breath of fresh air in the marketing world!
Find everything Natalie teaches to do this yourself at https://transformational-online-creators.teachable.com/p/rinse-and-repeat-challenges-workshop
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Hey, welcome to this week's episode of Content Creation Made Easy. I'm your host Jen Liddy. And today I'm talking to Dr. Natalie Masson.
The reason I'm asking Natalie to come on the show is, she's kind of an expert in my opinion about challenges. And I've actually been in her programs.
She teaches people how to do challenges. She also has another arm to her business where she works in the health and wellness and fertility field.
But she manages somehow to manage both of these arms of her business, which I find fascinating because I'm always ready to just take a nap with just my one focus in my business.
And I asked Natalie to come on because when it comes to challenges, I think that when we think about the content that's needed to lead up to the challenge, the content that's needed in the challenge, the content that's needed after the challenge, I feel like it can be really overwhelming, tiring for people.
I feel like it needs to be a high energy thing. But when I watched from the inside as Natalie did this, I was like, “She is busting myths and changing paradigms and doing it differently.”
And I wanted to talk today about how we can do challenges and make our content great without feeling like we have to be flattened against the wall or take a nap when we're over.
So Natalie, I really appreciate you being here and I'm really excited to dive into this conversation.
Thank you for having me, Jen. It's super exciting to be here and have a chance to share some of the things I've been figuring out over the last three years or so of offering challenges over and over again and just refining them.
And like you said, busting through the assumptions and myths about what it needs to look like, because I found that a lot of those things just aren't true.
Can you give us a brief overview of your business? Because like I said, you have these two arms and it's not like they compete with each other, they're just separate.
And I'm curious as a multi-passionate person, how you manage that. And I would love to then jump in about how you kind of dismantle our beliefs about challenges.
Yeah, so I guess I could say that I don't really manage it all. What you're saying about you can't imagine doing more than your one focus, I can't either. And I really only manage one side of them well.
So to give a little bit of background, I'm a clinical psychologist and this is my second career. I was first an engineer and quickly went back to school to learn what I really wanted to do, which was psychology, helping people, service providing, one-on-one therapy and that's what I've done.
That's been my primary thing for the last 20 years until about three years ago when I decided I wanted to… no not three, about six years ago.
I decided I wanted to make my way into the online course world because I want to be able to reach more people than I ever could one-on-one with people in my office so that kind of started that path out.
And then I envisioned that I was going to create content for teaching mind-body wellness, emotional healing, mindfulness-based works, breathing practices.
These were the things that I was teaching all the time in psychotherapy that I wanted to get out to the world.
In the midst of that, I had some bumps in the road on our way to conceiving our second child and discovered just how stressful the fertility struggles path could be and leaned into the coping strategies that I had been teaching to my clients.
And it helped me so much that I felt like this is the niche that I could start with in my online business is helping people learn these things for fertility.
Cause I'd heard everything about you needing to niche down so that you have a clear audience that's more focused than, “Hey, do you want to feel well?” That's a little broad.
So I went for the more narrow fertility niche starting with helping people dealing with the kinds of issues that I was dealing with, which was having children later in life and egg quality issues.
So I started very narrow there. And after I was building out that course and building that audience for a while, I realized that my audience needed much more help with the stress management.
Stress was just through the roof and I really wanna teach those skills. And that's where I was learning, I was in a course to learn how to build a membership and the way to build your audience and get people in and sell your membership that was being taught was the four video launch series.
And the thought of creating four videos where I promoted my stuff was horrifying to me because I was super camera shy at the time. I didn't have video editing skills and it just seemed like you have to be a Hollywood producer to really pull this off.
So I thought, I don't really want to talk about my program. I just want people to do these exercises with me.
And that my theory was if they can feel the benefits inside themselves, not me telling them how it can help them, but it's them doing it and seeing like, “Wow, I feel different. I feel better. Can I get more of this?” That was my idea.
And at the time, this was 2018, 2019. Challenges were becoming all the thing – Five day challenge, seven day challenge. I said, “Okay, challenge, we'll do a challenge.”
And so I was like, “I'll just do a tiny little teaching for them to participate in.” I'm not gonna deliver it live on Facebook or something like that. I'm just gonna record the movement practice or the audio meditation and let them follow along.
So that was my first experiment in using a challenge style format in terms of showing up every day and doing something with me and then I'm going to offer you my next thing.
How did that experiential approach translate for you?
It was dynamite. Like, I think back to that first challenge that I created and I was doing it in real time in the sense that two days before it was going to be released, I was filming, recording, editing to get that next lesson ready.
And then I would wait and see like, “How's this going to work? Are people actually going to do it? Are they going to leave comments? Is this going to work?”
And over the course of the week, I was just blowing my mind. I was like, “Oh my gosh, people are doing it. They love it. They're sharing about it. They're excited together.”
And there was this incredible synergy and transformation. And I thought, “Well, I originally thought I'm just making drafts. I'll make them better later for the lessons.”
But it worked so well the first time. I was like, “Well, why redo it? I already have it.”
And so I rinsed and repeated it. I just duplicated the course, I was doing it on a course platform. I duplicated the course, changed the dates and the links and did it again like two months later.
Then I did it again two months later because it was, and each time I would refine it a little bit. And at some point I kept watching other people doing these more typical challenge events where they have to show up every single day live.
And there's this crazy Facebook group and all this stuff. And I'm sitting there going, “I'm just reusing the same content and it flies every time. It worked the first time, the second, third time.”
And I just kept going and I thought, “I felt like everybody else is suffering over there, like it's very depleting”, not for everybody, but I think for a lot of us to show up and put out that live energy and a few times, but like five times or seven times every single day.
I think, for me, that would be really exhausting. So I felt then, I've got this secret, I need to share it with other creators because they're killing themselves and I'm not killing myself delivering this thing that I know, I just rinse and repeat it.
So that was when I created my Rinse and Repeat Challenges Workshop and just offered it to people in my creator community.
So I never really officially built out that brand and developed it into a profit channel of my business. I just honestly wanted to share and show people, “You don't have to do it that way. There's so many different ways to do this and check this out.”
And I wanted to really see if other people would take the ball and run with it in their niche. And there was somebody who has a gardening membership who applied similar principles and is rinsing and repeating every year.
Rick Stone does his Seed Starting Challenge in the spring and then he does a different challenge and you know later in the spring you know so he's applying the formula to match his niche but he's got all pre-recorded and rolls out that content the same content that he made last year, he'll do next spring.
I love that a lot of this is automated, so once it's done, it's done. I love the other thing I'm hearing you say is you really leaned away from perfectionism, like that thing about, “Oh, I had to re-record it, I had to edit it, I had to make it super flashy,” you just let that go.
And then the rinsing and repeat, I love that you haven't gotten bogged down in building out the brand that you have to teach your rinse and repeat method to online creators because your main business is your wellness, fertility work.
And this is somehow people stumble upon you and it's working for you. And you're very generous when you're teaching and you're just very open-hearted.
It's very easy to follow along with you and work with you. I have no idea how I ever stumbled upon you. But I think you're giving, if somebody's listening to this, there's a lot of permission happening here, right?
It doesn't need to be branded within an inch of its life. It doesn't need to be edited and super tight. You're just kind of showing up as yourself, which I think is incredibly important as we market and create content.
Yeah, you know, in fact on day four of my seven day challenge for fertility, I had this idea to wear a shirt, it was a t-shirt I had gotten that had an image of a dreamcatcher on it.
I'm more aware now about cultural appropriation. I probably would have not chosen to have or wear that t-shirt, but that was 2019.
I was wearing that shirt and I was running to work going, “Oh, it was symbolizing, manifesting your dreams, letting yourself have dreams.”
And that's what's so important in the fertility community is not getting shut down by all the negativity and the naysayers and being able to even have that hope and that joy and that openness for what it is that you're pursuing.
And I was like, “Oh, I wonder, I’d like to know the meaning behind dream catchers.” And so I looked at Google before I did my video, and dream catchers in Native American culture were thought to keep bad spirits away from babies, and they would hang them over babies' cradles.
And I was like, “Oh my gosh, that's just perfect. That's perfect.” And so at the end of the recording for the practice that I was teaching that day, opening your breathing spaces practice, I talked about that.
I said, “You know, I wanna share something about the shirt that I'm wearing.” And every time I tried to say it, I would start crying. A dream catcher is… I get choked up.
I couldn't get the, whoo, whoo. I have all this footage of me retaking that, trying to just get through it. And I cut it so that I got through it without crying all over myself.
And then I took that piece and I added it as an extras for that day so that I could share it. This is what's really happening for me behind the scenes.
This is how much I care about and understand where you are. I feel what you're feeling on this path. And I've kept that as an extras section.
And that's a way, then it was so spontaneous, right? You're talking about, you don't need to be so edited and perfect.
So that was a way for me to have it both ways. I did the edited version and then I shared the raw behind the scenes so that they could know me and they could see that this isn't all scripted.
This is a human being walking alongside with you.
They probably loved it.
Yeah, and I wouldn't try to remanufacture that. I'm just going to share, this is what happened the first time I tried to create this work is very personal, very emotional.
And so I think a lot of people think, you know, this is one of the myths. You have to be live to get that really strong presence and engagement. And I think there's another version of that.
There are so many ways that you can create that authentic connection. And that's one example of you're doing it live one time. It's between you and the camera the first time it's live.
And if you catch those moments that are raw and so spontaneous, authentic, you can repurpose those and people feel like they're live with you.
And everybody in my challenge who watches that, they're all crying too. If I rewatch it I'll cry again too because I captured that moment that was live. It’s just me in the room with my camera but it was live right then, it was live, it was fresh.
But it didn't have to be me sitting on Facebook with a hundred people out there at the same moment in time. We’re reliving that moment – recorded.
Yeah, on your own time, in your pajamas, at whatever time works for you. If you don't have, you know, two o'clock Eastern time available, you can do it.
And so I think that's another one of the myths that like everybody needs to be on there at the same time. What I'm curious about is I know that you hosted on a course site and that's where everything lives.
So how do people interact with you if they're not showing up live, if you're not doing it on a Facebook live or a Facebook group or on a live Zoom call, how do they get that sense that there's a community happening and that they have access to you?
Yeah, great question. So I have it set up so that they leave comments after. They're encouraged to leave comments after they do their practice. And so they leave their comments. They can read all the other comments.
And I'm training them to do that from the very first time they come into the course. So the very first page is, “Hey, I'm glad that you're here. Let us know with a hello and some emojis that you're here. I'm in. Let's do this.”
It's making it very easy for people to comment at first so that they just break through the ice of, “Okay, I'm commenting.” And so that serves a number of purposes.
They learn how to leave a comment. They see that other people are leaving comments that's social proof. And I will take pictures, screenshots of those comments without the names and I'll use that while I'm selling the program while I'm pitching it before we start so people can see, “Oh, look, other people are in there, they're engaging. There's activity in here and it's not in a Facebook group.”
People have a little trouble at first figuring out like, “What do you mean it's not in a Facebook group? I don't know what's happening,” but this helps them see how to do that.
I have a bunch of prep content assessments and things, tell us about yourself and people share. I don't know if it's somewhat unique to my fertility community. But actually I've done a version of this for wellness and people also share.
So yeah, it works across niches. And I have about half of the people sharing throughout the week, sharing and engaging throughout the week.
Half of those who registered will continue to share and engage throughout the week. So they see their own comments and each other's comments, they can reply to each other.
And then as far as my presence, I will reply to some comments enough that I'm catching things that I'm concerned about, things where people need more support. They can just see that I'm there and they're not just, “Boop, you're off on your own, have fun,” right?
I've seen challenges like that where no moderator is around and it's just a free for all. You're like, “Is there a driver of this boat? You know, where are we going?”
Yes, I have seen that too.
So they can see that I'm there and as time permits I create what I call coaching feedback videos. So I'll try to do this the day before we start.
I try to do an intro “Welcome everybody. This is our June 2024 event,” so that they know that it's not just thrown out there.
I mention a few names I see so-and-so and people are here from Australia and New Zealand and this all I name the countries that people are logging in from to help them connect with each other.
And then after the first day, I'll try to do a feedback video where I say, “OK, this is where I see some of you getting stuck.” And I'll refer to specific comments. I'll quote things that people are saying so they can see that I'm there.
In the ideal world, I would do a little 10-minute feedback every single day. That was what I would love to do. The reality is, I'm juggling, I'm spinning all the plates, I have two kids that I'm homeschooling, we're driving back and forth to school.
All these things are happening in my life while this is going on. So I'll be lucky if I do two feedback videos during the week. But then again, I figure I'm charging $39 for this week-long immersion…
That's another thing we did not establish. I totally forgot to say, your challenges are paid. Let's talk about that.
Yes. There's so many of these myths that I love to bring here. Yes, the first one was free because I have no idea. Let's just see if anybody will try this.
And that will be my learning to see how it goes. And because it went so well, I just thought it doesn't feel good for me to deliver this much value for free.
I really feel like it's worth a small investment from people. So I started with $19 and that was going so well, eventually I went to $29 and then $39. So now I offer it for $39.
And so I energetically don't think of it as the freebie to get a quick sampling of what I do. I have a lot of free content out.
I have a YouTube channel with meditations. I have free PDF downloads with lots of great information. And so I don't feel like I need to put another thing out that has no charge for people to get a sense.
There's plenty of ways for them to experience my work with no charge. And then I feel like when I do charge for this, I have that front end commitment that someone's really intending to be here and they're not just going to lose their password.
I mean, that's still going to happen, but I'd rather put the energy into a group that said, “Yes, the next seven days, I really want to do this.” And then I feel like I'm getting the cashflow on the front end too.
And so I don't have that feeling of “Wow, all these people got so much and then they just wandered off.” Because even with really good conversions, the majority of people are still not going to go to the next program.
Right? Sure, that's just like how it is. That's how it is in the online world.
Even with really good conversions. And it's like if you're standing out of the food court with food samples, people are going to try it and only a minority are going to go and buy the thing.
And that's okay. You've decided that balances it out. But when I was offering a low ticket membership, like $29.39 a month, I was getting 40 to 44% converting from my paid challenge into the next thing.
And eventually I changed to a more like a mid ticket course, but it's still a membership. Right now it's $4.99 to go into the next thing.
And then it's a membership fee after that. So it's a much higher price point to come in, right?
It's not a casual investment and now I convert at 18 to 25 percent. So it went down because of the higher commitment but it's still a really good conversion based on what I hear from other people's launch debriefs.
So having that commitment upfront that they're investing upfront does yield higher conversions in the end. And I like doing that because I do have enough of an audience that I can fill a challenge.
If I don't have enough of an audience to sell the challenge, I would do it free for a while just to make sure I was getting people in there to sample it and help me improve it, to build my audience.
And get some social proof. Yeah.
Exactly. But because I have a fairly strong audience base coming from my YouTube channel, it just energetically feels better for me to sell that as this is a service.
It's not just a marketing pitch. And a lot of times, free stuff, well, you know, it's like how much are you going to give away free without it being embedded into your marketing.
And so that actually is another myth that I kind of bust in mine is when you're doing one of these promotional events, you need to start pitching about halfway to two thirds of the way through, or all the way through.
You should always be telling them about your next thing and seeding it and teasing it. And on day four, you start hitting them with all of the, “This is why you need to do the next thing.”
And I have fully blown that myth up because I just don't pitch at all. In fact, when people start asking…
So when do they start hearing about… is it because they've said, I want more of this? I've got skin in the game, I put money in, I've showed up every day, and I've done the experience, experiential things that you've provided.
I'm starting to feel good, I'm starting to see a transformation. And does that lead to that, it's almost like, “Oh my God, I'm trusting my audience, I'm trusting people to actually make a decision without me having to have all of these machinations about like starting to pitch halfway through.”
That is exactly the key. That is what has guided me to strip away the rhetoric about just a lot of the rituals about how we think we need to sell, because people can't figure out that they might want your thing.
And so we think we better get that offer in there before they go off to the next thing in their inbox.
And I've tested this, like I've stripped back more and more to where if somebody's asking about the next thing, I say, please stay with this process, finish this out.
All my teachings are about mindfulness in the present moment. Let's be here. We're gonna finish through day seven. And trust me, we'll talk about the other stuff later, but I want you to be here.
I don't want you to be thinking about the next thing. So I'm modeling what I'm teaching them too. We're staying here and we're trusting.
I'm trusting that if I deliver well and you experience this, you'll wanna hear about the next thing.
So I don't start pitching until after day seven and we close it out and have a follow-up. I do do a live session and I found that that's important, there has to be that energy to come together to talk about the next thing.
And I tried to do something pre-recorded. So this is a caveat to the “it doesn't need to be live.” I did try to do my after challenge event as a pre-recorded thing as an experiment once it didn't convert well.
So it's a little bit like a webinar after the event.
Sure. But by then they've had wins, they've had touches with you, they've put in the time and energy, it's not cold, it's if they're there, they wanna be there.
Yes, and so here's what I saw. I track all kinds of metrics, including email open rate, completion rates. So I have a Google form that they fill out at the end of every lesson.
So I have this great spreadsheet of how many people finished each day. And I have little incentives for them to get to the end.
There's a reward when they get to the end to really keep them with their eye on the prize, staying consistent.
I haven't yet tested what happens if I don't have any accountability rewards. So I think they're making a difference, but I actually haven't tested that. I'm afraid to take it away completely.
So I do have rewards that they're keeping in mind why they're trying to do all seven days and wrap it up at the end. And I've been getting 45 to 50% completion.
And here's the other myth. They say, you better start pitching at day four because attendance starts drifting. You know what?
I'm going to say something bold, attendance starts dropping because people aren't engaged with what you're teaching them.
And because I have different content every day and I'm telling them ‘keep showing up’ and they're experiencing the benefits and I have these rewards, they do show up.
My curve of participation is almost flat. I mean, it starts out a little higher, but it's almost flat. And then last time, the last round that I just did, my email open rates the week after were 68% to 78%.
I'm pausing to say, “Wait, is that right? So that sounds insane.” And I start emailing only the people who haven't gone to the next thing yet.
So by the middle of the next week, I'm emailing only the non-buyers and I was getting 70 plus percent open rate on those emails.
So that notion that after you've shown up every day, people are drifting away, there's just this natural attrition, that does not have to be the case.
That's a sign that you're not holding their attention. But when you really refine your process, and now I've done this over a dozen times, I just finished round 19.
It wasn't quite this sticky the first time around. It was because of the rinse and repeat and refine and refine. I didn't change the actual practices, but all the packaging around it, emails, reminders, all of that, the prizes, I've been refining that.
It's gotten tighter and tighter to where I can say, like if you're really engaging people with a paid challenge, you can expect to have up to 50% sticking around to the end and even more than that
still curious to hear what you're going to tell them next, the week after.
And that is very different. Yeah, that's very different from what we've been taught.
Yes, because they've already received so much value. That is so true.
There's so much permission giving that you have dropped here and I'm hoping that anyone who's listening, who's considered a challenge in the past and maybe has done one, but it hasn't worked that well or you've done one and it's depleted you or you haven't done one because like me, you think it's got too many moving parts and it's too much of a high energy lift.
I think that if you can listen to this piece from you, all of these pieces and parts that you've shared, how can you use or adapt what Natalie is dropping here?
Because there's so much about busting myths that we have just seen other people replicating. And I think that your process is very, especially for those introverted entrepreneurs, which I meet a lot of introverted entrepreneurs.
And this sounds like an absolute dream for them. Not to mention the efficacy, like the high conversions that you're talking about, you don't have a high curve in the middle where people are like, you know, the engagement is high and then it goes low.
Like you really, you've got a flat curve here. It's kind of incredible. So I think that you come with so much permission giving and proof and it makes me feel excited about the future of marketing because it doesn't have to be, that you followed this guru and they've done it this way.
And they're telling you it's worked for them. Yes. But maybe they've got a huge list. Maybe they've got a huge team, but what if you're a single solo practitioner, you're an expert in your thing. You're not an expert in tech.
I just feel like you've given so much gold here for people who want to try a new way to provide value and get paid for it, which is one of my absolute favorite things about everything you shared today.
Yeah, it does feel good to have the cash flow happening because as creators, there's an energetic depletion when you're putting out and putting out and you're not getting the return on your energy investment.
And I think I really like what you're saying about the gurus who tend to sell formulas that have a lot of things in them that aren't necessarily the core principles and their tactics.
And so if I were to just think of the big picture, the principles that have been most important for the development of my challenges, it's to deliver transformation.
It's not a new idea, but really focus on how you're gonna deliver a strong transformational experience. And for a challenge event, any kind of series where you're going day after day, short-short-short.
Try to do 15 to 20 minutes. If you go up to 30, that's okay, but try to be short. That helps people be able to succeed in showing up because people have busy lives.
And then on the backend, I haven't talked about this here yet, but in my experimenting with how to create the, how to pitch the offer on the backend, I think a critical piece that's made a difference between 25% conversion and 12% conversion for me has been really helping them see why a next thing is important after they had this amazing success.
Because it can easily feel like, “Whoa, the clouds have parted, the angels are singing. I don't want to rock the boat. I'm just going to go away with what I have because I feel so good.” especially when what I'm selling them is reducing your stress and now they feel they're on cloud nine.
But I know, unfortunately, that it takes more than a week to sustain these things. And so finding a way to help them understand why, even though this felt so good, it's really important to have the continuation to learn more things about it.
So that's a piece that even if your challenge is really good, it can still bomb on the conversions if you don't really handhold through why the next thing is going to be important without the doomsday.
If you don't do this, this is all for naught and you wasted your time and you're destined for failure. Even without doing that you can just go with this and these are the reasons why the next thing will enhance this even further.
Yes, paint the future. Okay, that's a great point. That's like the cherry on top because you have to help them see.
It's like when you're on antidepressants, I don't know if you've ever been on antidepressants, but I have, and when you're on them, you feel so good and you're like, “I don't need these freaking things anymore” and then you go off and you're like, “Why does my life suck?” Oh, because you went off the antidepressants.
But you have to help them see what's beyond, once you get home from vacation, once real life sells and again, seeing what's beyond that and how your program can continue this really good feeling, this transformation without the God forbids and the doomsday messaging.
So I love that you added that in at the end.
Yeah, and the antidepressant analogy is actually a good one, it’s what I teach as a therapist to my therapy clients who are going through things like that.
It's like the antidepressants can help you have the energy to then do the things that over time could make it so that you actually don't need the antidepressants anymore.
For some people, they will find that, but not if you just do that and then just stop that, right? Do that and then the groundwork and that's essentially what I do in my next program is all of the groundwork that helps sustain these things. So yeah, really good metaphor.
Yeah, and helping them see that is important.
Natalie, how can people find you, whether it's on the wellness and fertility side or the online creator side, people who want to learn your rinse and repeat methods, where can people get in touch with you?
So for creators, you can check out my RinseAndRepeatChallenges.com website, which is still kind of in creation. The best place to connect with me and see me in action is my Challenges That Convert Facebook group.
And I just share as I go, everything I'm experimenting with, and I invite other people to share what they're doing and their challenges so we can learn together.
And I also have a YouTube channel called Harmony Within, which is where I'm sharing my general wellness meditations and education.
So as you can see, I'm kind of all over the place, but not everything gets my most full attention, but those are all the different places that you can find me.
You're somehow making it work. I don't know, it's working for you.
I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes and I wanted to say again thank you because you've unpacked so much for us to think about and how can we put this into our own businesses with our own niches and our own expertise and maybe even do a challenge for something that's outside of our niche that might feel fun to do based on all the things that you've unpacked today.
So thank you for all of this.
Thanks for having me, Jen. Super fun to be here and I just love the concept. Your podcast is one of my favorites about just finding strategic ways to think about content that are aligned and nourishing to ourselves as creators. I really love that.
Thank you so much. That's a huge compliment for me. All right. We will see you, listener, next time.
Thank you for tuning in because I know there's a bajillion podcasts out there. And so thanks for listening to this one. I'll see you next week. Bye.