Listen to the Content Creation Made Easy Podcast

What happens after they Know, Like & Trust you? with Phyllis Nichols

content creation made easy

Whew! Ok. Your audience has come to know, like, & trust you.

Now what? Ohhhh. Have we got a treat for YOU today!

What normally happens is we often jump to “BUY OUR STUFF” – because, let’s be honest: conversions are why we’re in business.

But there’s actually some other great stuff that helps the audience move there with more ease –

to feel good for both you AND them!

Try. Buy. Repeat & Refer.

We need to continue creating content that moooooves our audience along the customer journey…

AND do it with the Humanistic Marketing philosophy we love!

How? OMG. Today you’re getting SO MANY GEMS!

Listen in! I’m talking with Phyllis Nichols, who’s my podcast producer AND an idea machine.

Phyllis shares her insights, specifics, options, and tactics to try with your OWN content…

Click play & understand how to create safe, easy content that helps our audience go BEYOND the know, like, & trust factor - because your people are looking for the next steps!

Promise. Pinky swear! Let’s go!

Find Phyllis and ALL her great ideas at


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Full Transcript

 Jen Liddy

Welcome to today's episode of Content Creation Made Easy. I'm your host, Jen Liddy.

Today I'm talking with a person who is an idea machine. Every time I talk to this friend, she has an idea, she has a new strategy, she has a new huge thing she wants to get going on!

And I love talking to her because I'm a more plodding, get it done kind of person, like a robot.

She's always swirling with a million ideas. So we're actually pretty complementary to each other: this is Phyllis Nichols.

I need you to understand that Phyllis is not only like - I do not only know Phyllis and the fact that she and her team produce my podcast, but I've been in a mastermind with Phyllis. I've worked one on one with her before.

She helps me, I help her. So we've got a very deep level of knowledge of each other.

One day, yes, a couple of weeks ago, maybe two months ago, she sent this email-  I'm on her email list- and she was talking about what happens beyond know like and trust when you're creating content.

I was like, wait a second, what are you talking about?

 Jen Liddy

I just loved what she had to say because beyond know, like and trust, very few of us ever go into that forest.

So what is beyond the know, like, and trust?

We assume it's buy.

 I don't know; I can't wait to talk philosophy about this because I know that in 2022, as we head into ‘23, buying is a much longer journey for people.

I want to introduce to you Phyllis Nichols. She is the owner of Sound Advice Strategy.

Actually, she and her husband Kelvin own that, and they have a great team working to produce podcasts.

Today we're not necessarily talking about podcasts. Podcasts are a great way to do some of what we're talking about today.

But I just want to say, “Hi, Phyllis, and thanks for being here for that very long introduction!”

Phyllis Nichols

Well, hey, Jen, thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

You know, I love talking to you. Every time I talk with you I walk away with a lot of good ideas on my own.

You have a lot of good ideas too. So, yeah, I'm thrilled.

I was really excited when you emailed and said, hey, this sort of hit a chord, let's talk about it. So I'm happy to do it.

 Jen Liddy

Great. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about, first of all, what it means to go beyond the know, like and trust factor. What else is there?

Phyllis Nichols

Right? So I actually want to give credit where it's due. I learned this actually from John Jantsch. He's written a number of books. He's an amazing marketer. I believe his brand he's known for is called Duct Tape Marketing.

At any rate, we worked with Duct Tape Marketing for about a year.

So, this is a concept that I learned from him, which is know, like, and trust, which I think we're all familiar with.

Everybody, we've all heard that, and we all really think just intrinsically understand that.

But that's got to come first.

He added to that, and he calls it the marketing hourglass.

If we think about know, like, and trust, we actually see that as the funnel, right?

The funnel was sort of like the top of the hourglass, and then there's the narrow part of the hourglass, and then the traditional hourglass expands again at the bottom.

So after know, like, and trust, he identified “Try, Buy, Repeat, and Refer.”

There's ideally, in a perfect world, we would have content for all of those steps in our process at some point.

Again, in a perfect scenario, where clients would go from the beginning, the know, like, and trust, and they would just move right on through to the trying and buying and so on.

Phyllis Nichols

Sometimes that's exactly what happens. But what I mentioned in that email, and I think what you would be helpful to talk about, is most of us stop after know, like, and trust content.

Let's do some sales content, right? Like, we might have sales pages and things specifically created to sell, but even some people don't really even do that.

I want people to really just go beyond know, like, and trust and to know there's safe, easy ways to do that because that's really what your people are looking for.

 Jen Liddy

Yeah. So I want to talk about this visual of the hourglass. It makes a lot of sense to me. The top of the funnel is know, like, and trust. So what happens in that middle piece where the hourglass glass gets more narrow?

Phyllis Nichols

That's where it's try and buy, right?

Because we know, for example, at the top of the funnel, at the top of the hourglass, right, we might be connected with hundreds or maybe even thousands of people online, right.

You have a very large following, you know, like all these different people are maybe reading your emails or following you on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, right.

So that's what represents the top of the hourglass where it's really large.

The narrow part just means those are the people who have actually chosen to move forward with you in buying and buying your services, buying your products, hiring you, whatever that looks like for you and your business.

Jen Liddy

I like that because people are struggling to take action, even though that's what we want.

At the beginning of the journey, “taking action” looks like listening to the podcast, opening the email, and then we get to the point where there's a big slowdown and we want them to take different kinds of action, right?

 Phyllis Nichols

That's right. And we want to make it really easy.

So I think two things come into play. One is just our own from a marketer standpoint. We're marketing something, whether it's a book or a course or whatever that is, right.

We assume. A lot of times.

Or we're hopeful that if we just put enough great information out there and we show up and we're really nice and we're kind and we're helpful and we're genuinely genuine. Literally.

There's so many people who are genuinely just as generous and lovely as they can be. We're hoping that everybody will just automatically go, “Oh. Hey. I should buy some stuff from this person or I should hire this person!

Sometimes that happens, right? Sometimes that's exactly what happens.

But it doesn't happen often enough.

What we need to do is really help people along the journey.

You know, Jen, I love sales. One thing I want people to know moving forward into trying and try-content in particular, is that people love to buy.

People really do. We love to buy things, we love to invest.

Phyllis Nichols

We love to invest in ourselves and our business. We love to buy things for our kids and our families and our homes.

We love to buy. So buying isn't the hurdle that we sometimes think it is.

Jen Liddy


Phyllis Nichols

I just want people to feel encouraged by that. But I think that's where try-content then can become so helpful.

Jen Liddy

There's something that you said, so this is a quote directly back to you.

“Selling is making an offer and giving someone the chance to say yes.”

We're going to talk in a minute about what trying looks like, but if your “try” has a price tag attached to it, you don't need to feel gross or bad about that.

Phyllis Nichols

No, right? Not at all.

Yeah, and thank you for bringing that quote up because first of all, I truly believe that I just know in my heart that's really what sales really is.

It's not about manipulating people or anything, but also giving them a chance to say yes. We're also giving them the space to do that.

We're giving them the space to really maybe make a decision like, “Should I invest in myself? Should I go ahead and do this? Does that make sense?”

Sometimes people just need that space, like, “Oh, Jen wants to work with me. Jen would like for me to be in her group. Sometimes I need to be invited in!”

That's sometimes what many of us are so concerned about: offending or for people feeling that we're trying to be pushy in our sales approach, when in fact, I think most of the time people are just waiting to be invited and we're not inviting.

 Jen Liddy

I remember years ago I knew two women who were in the financial services realm and I knew both of them equally well. I liked both of them equally well.

One made an offer for my husband and I to come in and sit down and talk about it and the other never did.

She later said to me, “Oh, you're working with her? Oh, that's really interesting. I just assumed that since John was who he was and does the kind of work he does, that you didn't need a financial planner, so I never asked you to come in.”

That's the perfect example of what you're talking about here:  that ‘come in and have a conversation and we can talk more about that kind of Try.

But I was never invited in. It would never have occurred to me. I don't know if I was the right person for her. I don't know if she worked with people like me.

Phyllis Nichols

Right, exactly. Yeah. And so when we're not giving people that space, we're leaving a lot of the chance.

Sometimes again, as a consumer, I'm sitting over here going, “Gosh, you know, I really wish Jen would let me know how I could hire her.”

Or “This personal trainer over here that's doing such a great job with my friend, I really wish I knew if they were taking new clients”.

We're not just not getting the invitation or we don't have the space to make that decision.

Jen Liddy

So let's talk about what try kind of content looks like. You had some great examples that I’d never really thought of, Warby Parker, for example. 

 Can we just start there and kind of expand?

 Phyllis Nichols

Sure, of course. Warby Parker is such a great example because they just totally blew up an entire industry with their whole concept of, “Hey. We'll just send you some frames to your house, and you can just try them on in the privacy of your own home. Then you can see what you like and then you can buy.”

You're trying them and then you're going to send them back!

I bet some people buy all of them.

Are you going to send back the ones you don't like?

Are you going to keep the ones you like?

Hello. Right, like that's. Just in hindsight, it seems like the simplest solution ever.

Right, but it wasn't. I mean, people just didn't think about it before that.

For people who are sitting there going, “Okay, but I'm not Warby Parker, so what do I do for Try Content?

There's two things. One, again, you're literally giving people the chance to take the next step to try on, to try whatever it is you're offering.

For you as a marketer in the best scenario is you are also going to be putting your best foot forward.

Phyllis Nichols

This is your chance to sort of dazzle somebody again, not in an insincere way, but to really give them some of your best stuff so they get a really true sense of what it might be to work with you or what it might be to buy your product

We want to go into it with that mindset like, “What can I do that could really wow somebody and also give them a really great taste?”

We go back to some Try Content.

Look, I'm a huge Costco fan, right?

One of these things they do is they have people giving you literal samples of food and going, “Oh hey, try this, try this.”

I should call them someday and find out the statistics on this. But I'm sure they know for sure when they have you sample the little pretzel balls with butter or whatever they are, they probably see the sale.

They know the sales of those things are going to go up by X percent because they know when you've gotten a sample and you got to try it, they know obviously you're going to go, “Those are really good!” and you're going to buy them.

Phyllis Nichols

But some other examples of Try Content:

Jen, you do this really well.

You’ve done both free and paid like little mini courses where you take one piece of the things that you teach, you take a very specific part of that, not your whole program, right, but a very specific part and you teach that and you break it down for people.

That's amazing Try Content.

If there are people who are service providers, that's a really great way to do it.

Again, there's another person I know, one of our other podcast clients. Her name is Shannon and she runs a website academy.

It's a one-year group kind of thing training program.

One of the things she does is monthly calls where she literally (like you do, Jen), she supports her students basically. She answers questions and walks through scenarios and provides templates.

But these calls, every week or every couple of weeks, are really meaty. Like they really cover a lot of information and she's very generous and answers all these questions.

Phyllis Nichols

So about once a quarter she invites people who are not paid members of the group to listen to one of those calls and see what it would really be like to be part of this group in this community.

I think it's amazing.

It doesn't cost her anything to do it. The other people in the group actually really support it.

A couple of them get to share their personal story and it's a nice benefit for everybody.

As somebody listening in, then I have a really great opportunity to decide, “Does this sound like it's right for me? Is this kind of group vibe fit for me? Do I feel like I fit in?”

Or maybe I don't feel like I fit in. And I know I can make another choice, but I think that's a great option.

 Jen Liddy

I love so far you've talked about products, physical products.

You've talked about information, perhaps a piece of your program that somebody could get an early win on.

You've also talked about an experience. Come into the call and see if this feels right.

I love that because it's really hard for people to trust another person today in this online world. It's hard for them to trust themselves too, because they've either gotten burned or they've overcommitted or they’re over capacity.

The question really is, “Is this really going to move the needle for whatever I need it to do?”

Sometimes you've read the whole sales page, you've followed the person for so long, but you maybe haven't sought to answer a question that you don't even know you need to ask until you have the experience.

For example, I was invited into a networking group. They meet every single week. This thing runs like clockwork. It's like a military-precision ship.

I was like, “Oh, you know what? I could use some more networking. I could meet some more people!”

So I went to the first call and the experience I had informed me of so much about the people on the call and how it was run.

 Jen Liddy

But I never would have been able to even ask those questions about the environment or the diversity of the people who were in there or how it was approached until I had tried it!

So that’s another benefit that you give to people when you let them into an experience that maybe they’d never have had unless they experienced it!

Like even reading the whole sales page can give you that kind of information, right?

Phyllis Nichols

Yeah, that's right. And you know, I think that's a great example.

If there are people listening who have communities or who hold events, some sort of trial version of that could be just the perfect thing that somebody is waiting for and maybe you do it.

I like how my friend Shannon does it: it’s kind of quarterly.

It's not certainly not every month. It's just on occasion, I think with some other easy stuff.

I obviously don't want people to feel like this always has to be free.

You don't have to be giving things away.

I know that you've run a couple of your trainings at very accessible, very low cost, very reasonable cost.

Again, people have something invested in it, right? We know when we sign up for free training, sometimes people don't show up, but if I've paid for it, I'm probably going to show up and actually participate.

But I still get to try it out right before I'm making maybe a four or five-figure investment with you.

That is really helpful and if you're somebody who's like, “Wow, this is all great, but I don't have a group”, there are other things that you can do.

Phyllis Nichols

I'd like to mention just two more.

One would be literally opening the doors or giving somebody a taste.

Again, authors do this all the time, right, where they give you they'll give you a free chapter of their book and you get on the email list.

I have to bring up podcasting. Podcasting is one way that you can help people try.

Two great examples. Jen is first of all, one great example. Jen teaches on her show. She's done coaching live on her show, where she's literally working with a client and walking through some steps to help them get clarity on their message, which is fantastic.

It's very clear what working with you would be like. So I think that's a good example.

There's another person that I know who does high-end coaching. It's a pretty significant investment. She says, before we even book a discovery call, I need you to listen to these three podcasts.

And it's kind of one of them is like, here's what working with me is like. And she kind of goes through that.

The second one is where she's actually talking to one of her clients and sharing basically sort of a testimonial, sort of a success story.

Phyllis Nichols

And the third one is where she talks again about the kind of the process and what to expect and what you should be prepared to do as well. 

 Then after you listen to these three shows, if you still feel like this might be a good fit for you and you might want to take the next step in the investment process, which is getting on a call that doesn't cost any money, right?

But so it's great for her where she's clarifying people that want to come in, but also people are getting a true sense of what it's like, how she talks about things, the way she approaches her business, all those kinds of things.

This is asynchronous: she tells everybody to listen to this first. I can do it on my time and it's convenient for me.

She's not on the phone talking with somebody, trying to explain all this initial stuff. So when you get on a call with her, you already really know a lot about her and what she's going to do and what that call is going to be like.

Then you can quickly start talking about things that are really important.

Phyllis Nichols

Like, if I'm going to make an investment with you, here are some really some other questions that I have that I really need to have answered. I really want to know.

Jen Liddy

Wow, those are great ideas. I love that.

Does she find that people engage with the listening or do they maybe some people engage with it, but some people bypass it and just want to book with her.

There's all these different kinds of people in our audiences.

Phyllis Nichols

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Obviously she can't test to see if somebody really does.

But I think it's pretty clear though, if people come on and they have really basic questions about what working with her is like, she covers really clearly on the podcast, and she probably gets an indication like, “Oh, you probably didn't listen to that information!”

It’s not required, but I think it's helpful.

And again, totally, as a consumer, right, I’m not always given the option to do my own investigating, on my own time, when it feels comfortable for me.

I'm more likely as a consumer to take that step, unless maybe I've already decided I want to work with this person, or maybe I feel like I just need a shortcut.

I don't know. Certainly consumer behavior sometimes we all do that. I'm just going to schedule a call. Whatever. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's a problem.

I think it's just, again, for those of us who would like a little more information, who want to get some questions answered before we feel like we're on the spot or we're taking up somebody's time or taking even our own time!

Phyllis Nichols

I want more information. That's what trying information is for.

If I listen to those podcast episodes and they don't jive with me and I'm like, “Okay, I don't even like the way she talks about this”.

Or maybe it's just  - everybody's not for everybody, right?

So maybe I'm like, “She seems like a perfectly lovely person, but this is not going to be right for me.”

 Whatever. I just don't feel like I'm going to click with that person, then it's okay. She hasn't spent a lot of time with me.

I haven't felt weird putting anybody I don't feel put on the spot or that kind of thing. I'm not divulging information about my business to someone that I don't feel like I want to work with.

 Jen Liddy

There's so many ways that podcasting and voice specifically could be an easy way for people to try, even when there are people out there who want to see your stuff on video and they want to read the transcript and they want to read the captions, right?

There's plenty of people who want to see the video, and then there's people who just want to have it in their ears.

So giving people an option, and I think an important option is having people be able to hear your voice. I can imagine.

So the example that you just gave about the pre-setting up a call, but also maybe having a private podcast with like three or four really actionable items, they could be connected to your welcome series, or they could even be something that somebody opts in for.

There's so many ways. And so if you I'm just putting this out there because I know Phyllis is an idea machine and she can make anything happen and our team is incredible.

If you're thinking about taking some of your Try Content and turning it into audio to use, it's a really passive way for people to connect with you.

 Jen Liddy

I love the point Phyllis is making here without feeling like somebody's hovering over you.

It's like, you know when you take a test drive and the salesman's in the car and you're just like, I need to drive this longer and I want to listen again.

But really it's like being able to take a test drive on your own without somebody in the car with you or go through an open house without the realtor hovering over you.

Phyllis Nichols

Yeah. Oh, Jen, that's so great. Those open houses and test drives were also on my list of Try Content. But you're so right!

Sometimes open houses can be comfortable. Most realtors will be like, I'll leave you alone, come find me when you're done.

But not all the time. Anyway. But the test drives, right? Like they're in the back seat and you're like, “Oh my God, are they judging me as a driver?”

It's totally uncomfortable, right? At least it is for me. I haven't done that in a while.

 Jen Liddy

I'm going to just put a plug for repurposing here.

So even if you did an audio piece of Try Content, you could record yourself doing it on video and repurpose that.

You could download the audio and create a transcript so people who want to read can read it and then you can have it as a private podcast or even hosted on your website that is produced beautifully so it sounds great and people can listen to it.

So there's ways to repurpose all of this content that you're creating so people can try it in lots of different ways.

Phyllis Nichols

Yeah. That's so smart, Jen. You're right.

And here's the other thing too. So if you’ve got pretty amazing know, like, & and trust content and I find you because I'm searching for something over on Pinterest or wherever and your stuff pops up,

(we've all done this, right?)

We go down the rabbit hole and the next thing you know, I'm clicking I'm on your website.

Now I'm looking at some other information and I'm figuring out what their website looks like!

But if there's a huge big thing at the top that says start here, try this first.

Or basically almost like, “Here's my free sample”: wWe're not going to call it that, but you might want to just be like, you want to know more, start here.

Love that. Most of the time, if I am truly interested and I'm really doing a little bit of research, I'm going to click on that. I'm going to check it out and maybe it takes me right to a video that you've done and there's a link also for audio: so easy.

Set it up one time. It doesn't have to take a ton of energy.

Phyllis Nichols

It could be content that you've already created.

You're now just really positioning it so it's easy for me to find and consume when I'm ready.

Now I'm all of a sudden, again, we're talking about that funnel, right? So once we go from Try Content, we're much more likely to buy.

So when somebody has tried something and most of the time you probably want to have it be some sort of an opt-in if you can, right?

Now you can go: somebody checked out my Try Content, right? They raised their hand, they expressed interest.

I'm going to make sure I have some sort of email follow up and you might even want to try a personal one where you do and again, this depends on what you're selling.

If it's a high-investment course though, I think it'd be worth doing even like a little… what's that video service.

Jen Liddy

Like? Loom?

 Phyllis Nichols

Well, it could be Loom, but the other one I'm trying to think of where you can send it to them and they can reply back. All of a sudden my brain one is called Boomerang, but that's something.

Jen Liddy

I know what you're talking about. BombBomb.

 Phyllis Nichols

Yeah, something like that. There's a couple we used to record like a short video specifically going, Hey Jen, I saw that you took my free course or I saw that you checked out my $27 to get started whatever thing and I'm going to send you a personal, maybe like 60-second little video saying, I hope you enjoyed it, I hope you got your questions answered if you'd like to know more.

You know, the next step would be to do this, to set up a call or check out this other information.

Again. That's fairly obviously high touch and if you're getting hundreds of people opting in, that's not going to be scalable.

But if you're running a really expensive coaching program or something like that, or you're trying to sell a house. Yes. You're probably going to make that call. Right.

And be like, “Hey. I saw that you checked out our information. What questions do you have? How can we help??

 Jen Liddy

Right? Phyllis, thank you so much. Where can people get in touch with you to either work with you or start to get to know, like and trust you?

Phyllis Nichols

Oh, thank you Jen. So you can check us out .

We actually have a post with a lot of this information and even more examples and links to some other examples so that you can sort of see what I would encourage people.

If you have a product, is there a Warby Parker-kind of thing you could do? Try on some of these things and see how they might fit for you and give people the chance to find out how great you are.

 Jen Liddy

Yes, I love that.

Thanks, Phyllis, for coming on. Not only to talk about the idea of it, but you're always really good with specifics, and it's fun to just go back and forth.

So I want to plug Phyllis’ company: Sound Advice Strategies, because if you are looking to do a podcast and you've been feeling intimidated about doing a podcast because there's, quote, unquote, so many podcasts, Phyllis has information on how many podcasts are actually active

If you have been wanting to get your podcast up there, this is a great time to do it.

I highly recommend the team at Sound Advice Strategies. They always have my back. They're flexible, and they're just pretty incredible.

 Phyllis Nichols

Thank you, Jen. Well, you are a great client to work with, and I'm a personal fan of your show, and I listen to it all the time, and it's great.

Thank you so much for having me on. I love talking about this stuff.

 Jen Liddy

Thanks, Phyllis. I'll see everyone next week. Thanks for showing up for Content Creation Made Easy. Bye!

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