Jen: Good morning! I wonder if you have ever been in a position where you feel like you have more than one person that you want to speak to in your audience or more than one type of person or a person that doesn't just fit into one lane. They're consuming your marketing, they're consuming your content and you don't know how to speak to them. 

Is that a thing? Yes. 

Today I have my friend Claudia Schalkx here. Claudia and I were just laughing because she's in The Netherlands but she's Venezuelan and I cannot pronounce her last name to save my life. So I said “Claudia, is it okay if I say Claudia Schalkx?” and she's like “Jen nobody can pronounce my name right,” no matter where she goes in the world. Claudia, will you tell us how you say your last name?

Claudia: Schalkx which stands for in Dutch for mischievous.

Jen: Oh well that makes sense. That makes sense but I’m never going to be able to say that so this is my friend Claudia. She's actually a marketing expert and we like to talk every week about something that we see going on in the marketing world that we can kind of shed some light on. So today we're talking about what to do if you have two audiences. Do you want to take it over and just start talking about this problem?

Claudia:  Yes, what I see it's we in many cases is we do have more than one audience, and making a choice it's easier. Like for instance, you have a primal target and a secondary target and it's easier to make the decision. But you have situations like for instance one in your community where you have a product that the one using the product or the service is different to the one making the decision of investing. A case, in particular, is somebody who is a math tutor and she wasn't sure who she should be talking to the parents or to her pupils. So this is a very interesting thing that you also see with entrepreneurs that deliver services for companies because they think they speak to somebody in the company and it's, for instance, the human resources manager trying to selling a course for any other department. So the person you are speaking to it's not the person or the group of people who are going to use your service. So what do you do with your message? To whom are you going to tailor the message? 

Jen: You always come up with the best example! That's why I love talking to you because I would have never thought about that piece like you're speaking to the HR person but you're really going to be talking to somebody else in the company. Oh, that's such a good one! So what do we do about it? 

Claudia: We have that many times, you know, that even if you are selling swimming pools you think you're talking to the husband but you're also talking to the wife. And if somebody any of the two of them is not present during the sales pitch you are running the risk of missing business.

So you really need to be very aware of who is running the search? That's the first thing you need to know. Who is running the search? And tailor your initial search to that person. This is so nice because this links to our conversation last week about the search intent and where are people in their search. 

So in the case of the math tutor we were talking about, she needs to know who is running the search. Is it the parents or is it the kids? And she needs to use language that addresses the needs of both people. So if it's the parents making the decision and the parents are making the choice and they need to push this choice to the kids she needs to make sure that somewhere along the path she is addressing the kids as well. So what I would do there is I would use the worries or the concerns that the two groups have. For instance, the parents worry about the kids going to fail the exam, the test, and the kids are annoyed by math or don't understand math or are starting to fear math. So those are the worries. If you don't want to focus it so negatively because then you bring, you know, the hopeless people you can spin it to the positive. “Do you want your kid to enjoy math and to pass with flying colors?” That's something. And the kid, you know “Do you want to pass math without sleepless nights? Or be whatever the champion in your class?” But you need to find that point where the needs of the parents and the kids meet or the needs of the human resources and the other department needs.

Jen: Why do you think this is hard for people? 

Claudia: The buying persona. 

Jen: What? 

Claudia: The buying persona. 

Jen: So this is what I wanted to ask you because I love this example of the math tutor. So say you're a parent and in your head, you're like “I want my kid to pass. I want my kids to go to college. I want my kids to get into college easily or to pass this final exam,” but if you don't understand that maybe your kid doesn't have those same aspirations or doesn't mean maybe care about math, using that language isn't going to necessarily help that parent and that kid get this get the goal. So maybe the language for the parent might be “We know you want your kids to pass and feel comfortable with math so that everything is easier for them from here on in.” And maybe the messaging to the kids is “We know you're tired of struggling. We know that you're tired of hating math. We know you're tired of arguing with your teacher.” So you have to understand the insertion point of each of those buying personas. Right?

Claudia:  Yeah and the thing is because you don't know where people are in their customer journey where they search it might be that the kids see the message before and they take it to the parents or the other way around. You’re frozen.

Jen:  I know. I'm still frozen. Can you hear me though?

Claudia: I can hear you, yes.

Jen: Okay yeah. I know that's a really good face that you can see right now. 

Claudia: The grumpy cat face 

Jen: The grumpy cat face! So you keep talking. I'm trying to figure out my camera.

Claudia: Well it's very simple. So for instance and it's the same case for companies delivering services to corporations, it might be that the employee is the one seeing the message and he can take it up to the manager. And tell the manager, “You know we can use this course!” So you have to be depending which material or which content you're releasing, you have to make sure you're addressing the needs of the different groups you want to achieve or the different groups involved in the decision.

Jen: But can that ever be if you're writing content in your marketing and you're trying to do this even though say you know like “I understand my constituents. I understand what their concerns are.” As a content creator if you're trying to create content for both could that ever be confusing to the audience and how do we address that?

Claudia: Well that's a very good question. You should be the one answering that one!

But from a marketing point of view, you have a framework. So you're you have the main person and you can't say in this content, for instance, let's suppose we're talking again about employees and human resources. then you can say your company has these training programs etc. and your employees are looking to stay up to date. So you have to give the framework so that when the employees also see the information they know where to go with the information. You have the main person and then you can put the other people in but always in the context of the main person. 

Jen: So you really have to understand the language that your people will use. You and I say this all the time if you're not using their language. If you're using the language that motivates you as maybe the HR person versus the employees who are going to be benefiting from whatever you're putting in. So you have to understand the language that they use. You have to understand the feelings they use. Where are they at that insertion point? And their thoughts! What they're thinking. Again to go back to the math conversation, what the parents are thinking is often very different from what the kids are thinking. So the conversation in the marketing and the content really has to be “Are your kids thinking this? Feeling this? Doing this? Is this what you're seeing from your child?” Yes. 

Claudia: For instance with back to the human resources, they have completely different goals than the people actually doing it. So maybe human resources need to use the budget or needs to have completed certain training goals or whatever so they will step into the conversation differently than the people who are actually going to use the training. So what is interesting here is that you make sure which is the problem you are solving? 

Jen: Can you talk a little bit more about that and give some examples?

Claudia: many times we enter into a conversation thinking that we are going to solve a branding problem for instance. Let me take a step back my clients say “I want more clients.” That is their question. The lack of clients can be due to the branding, can be to their messaging, can be that they don't know how to close sales. So I need to understand what is happening? Why do they want more clients and what are these more clients going to make a difference for you? 

Let me go to an example. I read these from Marc Sheffer. They were talking about a doctor in a well-known hospital who asked their marketing department to set billboards along the road in a given area. So marketing department knows that the billboards do not deliver the results.  Whatever, okay. So they could have said billboards are not going to work, we're not going to do it. But when you ask this doctor why he wants the billboards or what he wants the billboards to do for him, then you understand that this doctor has probably seen other hospitals featuring their doctors. Or he wants more recognition. So when you understand what is the problem you are solving, then you can decide what are the things you have in your toolbox that you are going to use? 

Jen: Right, so one of the examples you had kind of brought up when we were chatting about having this conversation, was baby food. And so parents are buying baby food based on what they perceive as the problem. It has to be organic or it has to be as close to homemade as possible or maybe some people are choosing it based on it has to be affordable. My baby has to like it. 

Claudia: and for sure it has to be safe. So yes, you are appealing to the parents but you still need to understand what babies like, you know. Do they like pieces of food you know pieces of vegetables or do they just want it completely puree? Because the babies are not going to see your advertising but they are going to eat your food. So if they don't like it you need to understand why. 

Jen: Yes, this is so interesting so when you have people that you that come in kind of at two entry points...for me, with my private clients there's two kinds of people I generally work with. People who are coming into the business early, like early on in their business, so they're like “I know there's a lot I don't know help me get there.” And then the other person is “I've been in business for 10, 3, 5, 10, or 20 years and I can't get to the next level.” So they kind of have to unlearn some bad habit. So there are different entry points and they have similar solutions that I need to give them but I need to speak to them in a different way. These people need to believe that it's worth it to get help and to pay for help. And the people who've been in business for a long time need to under...well I guess they both need to understand that it's worth it to invest in help. So that's really interesting. 

Claudia: If they don't understand it they wouldn't even be coming to you.

Jen: Yes! 

Claudia: That’s what I think. Or to me or to anybody who can help them but what I think is interesting, and this is also in relation to the project you and I are working on, is that you have a process you help people through. When you focus on the transformations along the process or then again, when you focus on the problem you are solving, you are not tied up to tools. 

Jen: That's true.

Claudia: Right. You are focusing on the result which really gives you a lot of room to play. So if you are with a person who's starting, for instance, if I am starting with somebody which is not the clients I work with, but if I would be with somebody who's starting and they don't have clients how do we find out who their ideal client is except or beyond what they have in their minds? So we need to go to do market research and I need to help this person to understand the data we are getting from the market research. And that is a more quantitative result but as this person moves in his business and you know they learn and grow they will most probably understand that their initial buying persona was a bit off-target or needs more fine-tuning. But now they have insights! Now they have clients that they can go to for deeper information. You're still doing the buyer persona. 

Jen: What you said before about the result it's always the result that we're getting for people so whether it's the result that the HR people want or the employees want or it's the result that the teenager wants with her math or the parents want with their math or it's the result that a beginning entrepreneur wants or a seasoned entrepreneur wants, it’s kind of like they all want the same result. 

Claudia: Yes and at the same time they don't have the same driver.

Jen:  Right! 

Claudia: So for instance this is an example that's really going to clarify it for everybody and for my clients listening forgive me because you've heard this example before. 

But let's suppose I am a nutritionist you're not a dietitian. You would think that everybody who wants to lose weight could be my client. the thing is the driver to lose weight is different from one person to the other. So let's suppose you have this new mom who is fighting with the baby fat you need to know what is her driver because then you can tell her or she will describe her problem like “I don't recognize my body. Whatever clothing I wear I look like a potato bag with legs. I don't have the energy to be with my child and my marital life is suffering because I lack self-confidence. I don't feel sexy anymore.” None of these things this person has said: “I am fat.” 

Jen: Yeah right.

Claudia: So if you say your message is about fat and it's about losing weight instead of self-confidence feeling great in your skin, being having this feeling that you can conquer the world, you will never attract this person. 

Okay, same example. Let's suppose I am an overweight mom and I will say “Whenever we go out I am the one making the pictures because the seats and the attraction parts are so small that I don't even fit. I am no part of my family memories.” So if you tell to this woman you have to go five times in the week to the gym and eat celery and carrots you're not going to meet her because she's not telling you I am bothered by the overweight I am bothered by what overweight is causing in my life. So then again you need to know what is the problem you are solving. This is the external sign but it's not the true struggle inside. 

Jen: This is why you are so incisive and insightful because you are able to help people understand that part of the framework that they're ultimately going to create. That you help them like get to...because if when you put it in those terms like “Oh I’m using the word lose weight, lose weight, lose weight, but this woman that i want to work with like that's not her motivation,” right? And so you know for me to get a client and I use the words like “Get more clients, get more clients, get more clients,” for somebody who's like been in business 25 years and has a thriving business that's actually not what they're coming to me for. They want more time and more freedom from their business or a better client or better clients or higher-end clients. Yes, yes. 

So this is a really interesting conversation. 

Claudia: You really need to know what is the problem you're solving and you should invest in finding out what is the problem you're solving. And the way you're calling your problem is the way the other people call them problems.

Jen: Well that's a big one right. Let's get to wrap it up. When when you have two or three people who you could be speaking to in your marketing what do you think are some takeaways like some things that we can put into place to help us alleviate this problem? If we were to bullet point everything we just said.

Claudia: Okay have very clear who is running the initial search.

Jen: Yes, what are they searching for?

Claudia: What are they searching for and who of the people you're considering is running the search? Because that will be the first point you will be talking to.

Jen: Okay so what are they searching for and who is searching who is doing that search. 

Claudia: And of course be very clear about who's making the decision and who is using your service or consuming your product. 

Jen: And sometimes that they're not the same people and they're not speaking the same language and sometimes they don't have the same motivations. 

Claudia: Exactly. So you need to find what is common for the two of them. 

Jen: Okay so that's a really big one. So even if it's a parent buying for a teenager you have to be able to speak the language for both. 

Claudia: Yes. 

Jen: Okay and then is there a third one? 

Claudia: Yeah well a little bit said in that, know the problem you are solving. Find really what is the problem you are solving, not the symptom the problem you are solving. 

Jen: Can you just clarify before we get off the difference between a symptom and a problem because I'm not sure that that that's really clear to people? 

Claudia: Symptom is normally what you can see. I have a headache or my stomach is aching or my sight is blurry. That's the symptom and the problem is what's causing that symptom. So for instance lack of water can be a reason for a headache. You need glasses if your sight is not straight, not sharp. So you need to find out what is the problem and normally people come to you with symptoms. 

Jen: That's so true. That's so good Claudia. Can you tell us how people can work with you? Because this is what your specialty is, helping people figure this stuff out. Tell us how we can work with you.

Claudia: You always ask those difficult questions. It's a hard question. You can work with me if you have been doing everything the gurus say and you still don't see the results for the time and effort you've been putting into your marketing. If you feel that marketing is not doing the heavy lifting for your business. If you want more clarity about who's your ideal client, you're offering how to close strategy calls, if you want to leverage your marketing strategy in your style, because it's also very important. And I have different solutions depending on what you really want to achieve and it all starts with a 20-minute call where I know more about your problem, I understand more about your problem and for sure you leave that call knowing what is the cause of the problem and options to solve it. 

Jen: That's what I love about you because you really do help them narrow down like “This is where the leak is happening. 

Claudia: Exactly, and one of the trademarks that I have and of which I’m very proud is that I see what you've been doing so far and how we can improve that, make it better, more efficient, streamline it so that you don't have that feeling “Okay here we go again. I'm starting from square one again.” We leverage on what you've been doing so far.

Jen: I love that. I’m gonna put your … it's https://bridge2more.com/  

So I highly recommend getting on a call with Claudia because even if you don't wind up working with her she's so insightful that she can kind of see where the water is leaking and can help you. 

Claudia: I just want to say I’m very generous in those calls. 

Jen: I love talking to you on Friday Claudia. Thank you so much again for your insight. 

Claudia: Thank you for inviting me and wishing you a very nice weekend 

Jen: Thank you. Bye, everyone. 

Claudia: Bye.